Weichengrenzzeichen
Hi Could anyone tell me if 'Weichengrenzzeichen' (google translates as a 'switch deliminator') would be present on a Bavarian branchline in the 1930's. If they were, would I be right in assuming they were just painted red or with red and white stripes? I've been scrutinising photographs but cannot clearly distinguish them on branchlines. Thanks Pete

Pete, Starter for ten: Grenzzeichen is translated as 'shunting limit signal' or 'fouling point' in Ernst's technical dictionary. I suspect the latter is what we're looking at here. The current sign is a 120mm high cylinder, 90mm in diameter, rounded off at the top and painted with 4 red and white vertical stripes. It is placed between 2 branching tracks at the point where they are 3.5m apart (40mm in H0 scale; 22 mm in N scale). However MIBA says that 'earlier' (presumably in DRG times) they were in pairs next to the inside rail of the 2 tracks. The DRG called this sign 'K 12'; the DB 'Ra 12' and the DR 'So 12'. Bavarian signs by contrast comprised a red post or a red-painted sleeper and were designated as 'K 112' in the 1935 Signal Book. Apparently they are still occasionally seen today, but now painted red and white. (Source: MIBA Report 18.) Zintl doesn't mention them as far as I can tell, but looking at old photos I can see some short white posts with a dark (red?) stripe in a 1962 photo and a white post with a dark (red?) band around it in a 1957 both at Spalt. Also white posts with a dark top at Hof in 1962, Steinach in 1963 and Forchheim in 1933. I have not seen any of the Bavarian versions only the current one, even in Bavaria. Perhaps one of our German experts can enlighten us further. HTH, Regards,

Pete/Paul, The presence of white posts with dark (red?) tops on branch lines goes back to a very early date on branchlines. Here are some photographic examples: Bayerische Nebenbahnn, Zintl Picture 24 Wendelstein, 1934 Eisenbahn Journal III/87, Der Glaskasten Picture 71 Mühlhausen, probably before 1920 Picture 100 Berchtesgaden, 1931 Picture 101 Wendelsstein, 1928 Picture 139 Jossa, before 1914 Picture 170 Tittmoning, probably before 1914 Eisenbahn Journal II/93, Die Baureihe 98.8-11 Picture 31 Krumbach (Schwaben), 1938 Eisenbahn in Oberfranken, Bufe Page 192 Selb-Stadt, 1913 Page 249 Helmsbrechts, c. 1888 There are other photos in these books, which show dark posts that could be the Bavarian variety. From this evidence, I am quite happy to install posts on my proposed branch terminus set in 1935. Tony

In the end I cut the white plastic poles used for model road signs into 1 cm lengths, painted the top 3-4 mm red and stuck them into pre-drilled holes in the ballast between converging tracks. The dimensions are a best guess based on old photographs, but they look pretty effective as Bavarian fouling point markers.

Paul, Good tip! I am planning on these for my layout also. Jim

I've done these in N scale using pins from electronic connectors (pins from D connectors would probably do the job). These represent the DB era round topped version. Find the right size pin and the same should work for HO.

Dick, Yet another great tip! I do have a question regarding height (even in 1:1). Most of the pictures I have seen (Sachsenschiene, gerdbohmer, Knosske, THEMT, etc.), these seem to be very low set relative to the view. I do understand that not all places get snow that would last all winter, but are there allowances for height for places where these might get buried in snow? And would not a shorter wgz pose a tripping hazard for the workers? Now, granted, I am a bit of a 'stumble-bum', but I would think there would be a danger of tripping into/under a moving train :shock: , especially if you are concentrating on something else at the time (like the aforementioned 'moving train'). Now, maybe it is a parallax thing where they really are higher than they seem, but...? Thank much! Jim

Jim, No, you are right - the modern ones are quite low - I would guess the older Bavarian posts are at least twice the height (possibly for the reason you say). Perhaps snow coverage is not an issue, because you only need them if parking wagons on a siding when shunting and then you could brush the snow away to find the fouling point marker and place your derailing shoe accordingly. What we need is a member of the forum who is a DB railwayman and would know about these things! Perhaps there's one on Drehscheibe?

Paul, et. al., Would wgz also be used at passing sidings and in station areas with numerous bahnsteige? Thanks, Jim

If I could think of everything at one time I would scare myself :roll: How about roundhouse-lokschuppen? I can not seem to remember seeing too many wgz there in pictures, maybe I was not looking for them. But why would they not be used (aside from maybe the quantity)? :? Thanks, Jim

They are everywhere, at every point all over stations, yards etc. You only spot them if you are looking for them. Ebert sell them: http://www.erbert-signale.de/Eingang/unten/zub/page2.html SJ

SarahJ, Thanks! I thought I might just be "Blind in one eye, couldn't see out of the other!" :lol: Also, that is a great link! Looks like I have another source for my money (to go to :lol: )! Thanks again, Jim

On a rather bizzare note, if you ever see the film, the great escape, watch out of the station scenes. A few of the old type ones are on show. Told you if you are looking for them, you see em. :P SJ

SarahJ, Thanks for that info - Sounds like I have a movie night coming up!! :8) Jim

According to Stummi's forum, Weichengrenzzeichen are probably not used on turnouts where no wagons are ever likely to be parked e.g. outside stations on the open line. Out of interest can anyone verify that? If not I will have a look when I visit Franconia later this month.