Pressurized Gas Tankwagen of the 70's
Hi everyone: Roco is releasing a series of Tankwagen which are listed as era IV. Some of them are obviously late era IV- early era V, but at least one looks early 70's: It's Roco 67713. It has the corner brake decals, which I think were applied till 1976, and the car data is all black and white. The Eva logo is white with a black background, which is something I can't date so far. I've seen a lot of black with white background or white with carbody colour. Does anyone have any idea when the configuration on the car would have been applied? Incidentally, I was checking this model against this site: http://www.kaminski-hameln.de/Gallery/index.htm . I don't know if it's in our link list, but it's excellent for tankwagen photos and construction dates. Jurgen Corrected wheelset number to item number (oops)

Hi Jurgen, The negative version of the EVA logo was fairly typical on light-colored surfaces such as those of compressed gas cars, cars with tanks made of aluminum, etc. So that on its own is not easy to use to date the car. By the shade of the hazardous material stripe, I would guess that the age of the car to be somewhere after 1971, but before 1976 (if Roco's color is accurate). I'm having trouble reading the car number from the photo. If you send it along I'll see if I can drum up some further details. There was a study done of the Roco compressed gas cars (I'm trying to locate it) and all of them were found to be prototypical, if that helps. All the best, James

Hello, James: I'm afraid I can't help with the car number; this is a new item and this is the best photo I have. It sounds like it should be a good purchase for me so far. I'm trying to build a compressed gas tank train for around 1970, and appropriate models are scarce. Some of the other waggons in the series might be useable as well, but the car data has some orange decals on them, so I think they would need new data. I have no idea where I could find decals for that. This is the link to the whole series: http://www.roco.cc/content.php?id=1464&kat_id=MiwKCQkJCQkJCQkJCQkzLAoJCQkJCQkJCQkJCSwKCQkJCQkJCQkJCQlH/HRlcndhZ2VuLAoJCQkJCQkJCQkJCSwKCQkJCQkJCQkJCQkxCgkJCQkJCQkJCQkJLDAsMCwx&typ_1=&land=&epoche=&spur=1&artikelnummer=&search=&p_search=&acdc=&archiv=&page_cp=294&PHPSESSID=87eb072d3c91677e14cf66bde6482d63 There's also this set from Trix: http://www.eurorailhobbies.com/ERH/eurorailhobbiesdetail.asp?pageid=&erh_find=24352&stock=T24352 It's the 24352 set. I know it's era 3, but I can be a little flexible if the overall paint is correct. I just wonder how correct this set is. (I'm not sure how quickly I want to part with $250.00 for it, either.) Thanks for your help so far, James. Jurgen edit: updated URL (until they change it again...)

Jurgen, Two quick notes: - For some reason, Roco.cc (in their "Infinite Wisdom" - is there a "Dripping Sarcasm" emot-icon?) changed the link tag above to a different page of items (canvas side guterwagen). What were they thinking ? :lol: Anyway, on the main Roco.cc page, 'Guterwagens', 'Seite 58' is where we now find our kesselwagens. - (I am going to whisper this - the 40196 is the AC wheelset - the stock # are 67713-67718, sorry :oops: ) I have been researching for another of my own kesselwagen, and have found it deucedly hard to find info. Thanks for the Kaminski site!! It is good! Now, I found on this site: http://home.wtal.de/gueterwagen/gzen.htm one thing that kicked me as far as lettering/codes/etc. (hang in here with me as this is a thing with early vs late Era IV) As I read it (and I kept going back and forth, ad nauseum...) the UIC of 1964 did not introduce a Z (2axle)/ZZ (4 axle) designation which would be on the car plate. However from 1951 to 1964 the DDR did have Z/ZZ; DB did not. As near as I can tell, the DDR kept using Z/ZZ after 1964 anyway (why change?). The UIC of 1980 finally made Z/ZZ designations system-wide. I suppose the DB thought: "Hey a kesselwagen is a kesselwagen..." :wink: . Now with that said (whew!! :roll: ), as much as I enlarged the pics, I could not make out whether the plates on these new Roco items have a ZZ (in this case) on it... If they have ZZ, they would be post-1980 (late IV). For me the Z code was a real "Oh dear" as far as epoch was concerned. Even though my manufacturer said DB Era III the plate said "Z", clearly Era (late) IV-V for DB. I was tempted to just use a marker and black out the 'Z' :shock: , because other items were OK, and I really like this car...hm-m-m. I have also pored over railfaneurope.net and a few others, and found much what James found - it seems as if it is a function of body color, but even then does not seem to be bound by any rules - aargh! VTG seems the same. The script style itself seems little changed over the years. I wish I had more on the logo, but the info on Z/ZZ may be an important item for Era timing as well, maybe? Probably have to see an item 'Up close and personal' to make the final decision. They sure are nice looking cars! Sorry for being so wordy :roll: but I hope this helps a little, overall, since you mentioned 1970 as your goal. :) Peace, Jim (hedging a little, wondering how hard and fast I want to be on Eras) :8)

Hi Jim: I had not noticed the Z/ZZ designation so far. I'm still having some trouble seeing the pattern there, but that's partly because I don't have many tank cars so far, either. The details I've been looking at are the presence of brake decals and the colours used for the weight table on the data board. The corner brake marks were used until the mid seventies, and the black and white weight table changed to orange in the early seventies. If a waggon has brake decals and black and white data, I consider it visually acceptable. This includes allowing Era III waggons where they should all have computer numbers. Maybe someday I'll be able to update the numbering to 1970 standards on those as well, but for now, they don't look out of place at first glance. The problem with many of the tanks available is that they have orange warning labels on the tank body. These are mostly 1980's or later, so I have to stay well away from those, unless those stickers can be patched over or removed in some way. The likelihood that the rest of the lettering (or waggon itself) is out of era as well is too high to bother, usually. As a general principle, I believe that Era III tank cars (or any other goods waggons, for that matter) are a better choice visually for my purposes, and as I said before, I can fix the numbers later if I choose. But if I can find early era IV tanks which are definitely correct, I will buy them. (whispering: by the way, thanks for not spreading it around about my dumb mistake with the model number... :P) Jurgen

Jurgen, (whispering: you are welcome ) The update link sure is a long one! :shock: I am also of the mind-set that I can allow a few things if they are visually acceptable, as you say. Some times I can overlook it if I love the car! :roll: :wink: If one of my cars does not have its computer number, it has just not had the chance to get back to the BetriebsWagenWerk for an update :roll: ! Peace, Jim

Hi Jim, one thing that kicked me as far as lettering/codes/etc. (hang in here with me as this is a thing with early vs late Era IV) As I read it (and I kept going back and forth, ad nauseum...) the UIC of 1964 did not introduce a Z (2axle)/ZZ (4 axle) designation which would be on the car plate. However from 1951 to 1964 the DDR did have Z/ZZ; DB did not. As near as I can tell, the DDR kept using Z/ZZ after 1964 anyway (why change?). I think that you've got your date ranges a little off. The Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft (DRG) used Z and ZZ for its tank cars. And after 1945, the DR continued using Z and ZZ. However, after 1945 the DB seems to have just called them "Kesselwagen". When the UIC 438-1 scheme was introduced in 1964, Z and ZZ on the DR were replaced with Uh and Uah respectively. The double letter primary class designations for trucked/bogied stock were abandoned in favor of a the lower case letter 'a'. This made tank cars: U = Special car a = with 4 or more axles in bogies/trucks h = for liquids or gaseous substances Furthermore, in keeping with the international adoption of this standard, the DB began using U(a)h designation for its tank cars at this time too. In a revision of the UIC scheme in 1980 (also called UIC 438-2), tank cars were split off from the other special cars into a "new" class called Z, which they are still classified with today. So, on the DR, a 4-axle tank car before 1964 would be ZZ and after 1964 Uah. Then after 1980, a Uah became Za. On the DB, a 4-axle tank car before 1964 would be simply called a Kesselwagen (mind you, there were abbreviations for the various types, such as EK for "Einheitskesselwagen", etc.), after 1964 a Uah and after 1980, Za. Now with that said (whew!! :roll: ), as much as I enlarged the pics, I could not make out whether the plates on these new Roco items have a ZZ (in this case) on it... If they have ZZ, they would be post-1980 (late IV). Actually, if it was a DB car and had any letter designation at all, I'd consider that unusual. And if it was ZZ it would be just wrong. ZZ didn't officially exist on the DB and on the DR it had disappeared by 1968. Also, I have to go onto a bit of a tangent here, but stay with me as it is germane: Commercially operated tank cars on the DB were mostly owned by lessors, such as VTG, EVA, Sogefa, etc. Remember that the tank cars were classified as "special" cars. That's a really important thing to keep in mind, specifically in a study of DB tank cars. The "normal" rules don't generally apply because the cars were inherently not normal. As private-owner cars, they weren't owned by the railroad company and so weren't subject to the same rules. So for tank cars, a lot of the adherence to lettering standards above and beyond the minimum required in order to get the car on the rails (like having a valid car number) depended on the willingness of the owner of a given car. The biggest way this plays out for the purposes of this discussion is that private owned cars are (even today!) NOT required to carry the classification codes! Some of them do these days, but it is still uncommon to see a tank car with any letter code designation, and it was even less common in earlier eras. So that's why you almost never ever see a DB tank car with a Z or Ua designation. (check the Kaminski site and you'll see what I mean). The only way to figure out their "real" designation is to look up the number in the UIC 438 codex and see what letter code the digits translate to. Speaking of numbers, up until the UIC numbering scheme was introduced, all private-owner cars registered with the DB had numbers beginning with a 5. After 1964, the UIC schema determined that private-owner cars got numbers beginning with a 0. This was changed in 1980 so that all tank cars (both private and railroad-owned) received numbers beginning with 7. I have also pored over railfaneurope.net and a few others, and found much what James found - it seems as if it is a function of body color, but even then does not seem to be bound by any rules - aargh! VTG seems the same. The script style itself seems little changed over the years. Actually there are distinct painting regulations for tank cars of the DB, the problem is that after 1945, the DB had VERY few of its own tank cars (a likely reason that they didn't find it necessary to give them any class designation). Yes, there were thousands of tank cars carrying DB registration marks, but these cars were the aforementioned private-owner cars. The few tank cars owned by the DB itself were almost all used for internal purposes, rather than commercial ones. The shift in body color is consequently less reliable as a spotting detail. Each of the private companies had their own house colors, but as these things are wont to do, that drifted from car to car depending on what shade or brand of paint was at hand, and often private companies would just buy cars from other private companies, thwack their logo over the old, and send the car back on its way. So body color on private-owner cars is a tough thing to accurately base dates on. However, it was the color of the warning stripe around the tank that was regulated and what one can (sort of) use for the basis of a chronological study: (for DB cars and private cars registered with the DB) As of 1953, compressed gas as cargo is to be denoted by a colored band running longitudinally around the middle of the tank. - Initial color was "dark yellow" (no RAL palette code cited) - after 1961 RAL 1007 Chromium Yellow - sometime in the mid-1960s RAL 1004 Golden Yellow was introduced - after 1971 RAL 2003 Pastel Orange So any belt stripe that appears to be yellow rather than orange would date from before 1971. After 1971 I'm sure that there was a period of about 4 years transition before all of the cars were carrying orange bands, but that's getting out of Jurgen's time period anyhow. To sum up, to meet Jurgen's goal of being in service in 1970 a tank car model should: 1. have number beginning with 0xx x xxx rather than 7xx x xxx 2. if for compressed gas, have a yellow belt band, rather than orange 3. have brake 'squares' Hope this is useful info and not too boring a read. All the best, James

Hi James: Not boring at all, and competely relevant, in my opinion. So the pictured Roco tank has an orange band, thus it's an anachronism for 1970. I find it easier to deal with things too old for my era than things which should not have existed yet, for some reason... It looks like I'm back to that Trix set; it has the yellow band (as would be expected of an era III set), and other than the pre-UIC numbers, it looks spot on for me. Now I just need to win the lottery to pay for it :P. Jurgen

James, Now that makes sense!! :D Thank you. I was so confused :roll: I did not pick up the "Uah" at all. Beautiful! Peace, Jim

Hello everyone, I just joined the forum, and this is a rather old thread, but I thought I would add for the benefit of those that don't know, that the TRIX pressurized gas wagons mentioned above are available singly from Marklin as model 46450. I have one, and to my eyes its horizontal band is definitely orange, not yellow. The only slight problem with running it on an Era IV layout is that it has the old "winged-wheel" VTG logo instead of the modern one. Hope this is of use to someone Tom

The winged wheel logo was applied until around 1971, so for early era IV it should be fine (other than the lack of computer numbers). The band being orange when the cars have era III lettering is odd in light of the earlier post about yellow bands. Could it be this is yellower than the orange in the Roco photo? I suppose bands could be repainted, but why should one have to do this on a waggon that's so expensive already? Jurgen P.S. It appears all the links above have been sabotaged by the websites again. I'm thinking it may be better to pirate the photos and put them on imageshack in the future...