Looking for Zugbuildung for Epoche IIIb F zug.
Hello Modellbahn colleagues. The following list of trains are of interest and would be seriously helpful towards the running of prototype trains on the layout. Can anyone supply or point me in the right direction to obtaining the train formations? F13 Porta Westfalica. F16 Dompfell. F17/18 Germania. F32 Patrizier. F33 Gambrinus. F37/38 Hans Sachs. F146/147 William Busch. Many thanks, David

Some of these trains show up as IC's in 1971, but not all of them are shown as running via Wuppertal at that time. If you like, I can post those trains, though it's unclear how similar my era IV consists would be to the time you're interested in. Jurgen

Hi Jurgen, Were the IC first class only, when first introduced? If yes, then I would be very interested, as the IC network was the updated F zug operation. I know that some F zug had Second class coaches, but none called at Wuppertal, as far as I know. Some only called in the south or North direction and in the opposite direction took the route via Essen and Duisburg. I have found some examples of VT11.5 and loco hauled ( V200/01.10 ) Aum's + WR. Would DB have had enough TEE stock available to put vehicles into F zug formations? I have noted TEE WR in some trains. Many thanks, much appreciated, David

The IC network started out in 1971 as 1st class only. This lasted until the 1979 startup of the two-class system with hourly schedules. The DB used mostly what it had on hand to start up the IC network. The VT11.5's, which had been withdrawn from TEE service, were supplemented by old TEE's like the Rheinpfeil which just continued to do what they did before except with IC destination signs. There was a shortage of 160km/h capable diners when the IC network started, so I suppose some blue and red diners would have been pressed into service until the ARmz211 diners were delivered in 1973. I believe the DB made do with what it had in TEE service for coaches; no new IC coaches were bought until the 1977 order for Eurofima coaches. I'll check the list again and scan anything that looks useful. Jurgen

Hi David: I scanned a couple of the trains on your list: I didn't bother doing any of the others because they were similar to these in that the coaches are all Avm or Apm TEE-style coaches, so I doubt they would have been the type used when they were F-trains. I thought you might be interested to see that the Porta Westfalica actually teminated at Wuppertal-Elberfeld. A notation indicates the coaches were forwarded to Hagen on 50144 (50000 series trains are usually goods trains) from which the coaches then returned through Wuppertal on Hans Sachs to München. None of this helps as far as seeing what the F-Zug formations or operations looked like, unfortunately. Jurgen

Hi Jurgen, I think substituting with Aums wouldn't be far off the mark. Brilliant information as usual. Thank you for spending the time finding this for me,very much appreciated. David

Well, if you like, I can scan all the rest as well still. It turns out all of the trains on your list are IC's in 1971. These are the routings I have: Gambrinus. 112/117 München-Hamburg via Düsseldorf and return Hans Sachs. 121/128 Hagen-München via Wuppertal/München-Dortmund via Wuppertal Patrizier 132/135 Hamburg-Köln via Düsseldorf and return Dompfeil 140/147 Hannover-Köln via Wuppertal and return Germania 142/143 Hannover-Köln via Wuppertal and return Porta Westfalica 144/145 Hannover-Wuppertal/Bonn-Hannover via Wuppertal William Busch 148/149 Hannover-Köln via Wuppertal and return The others are more scattered in the book, but I can photoshop them into something coherent to post. Jurgen

Hi Jurgen, Just the listed ones please. Many thanks, David