KBayStsB Nebenbahn Signale Realistic Operation

KBayStsB Nebenbahn Signale Realistic Operation
KBayStsB Nebenbahn Signale Hello; I am attempting to determine the signaling method used at Spiegelau Bahnhof in Bavaria. This is on the Bahnstrecke Zwiesel–Grafenau which is a 31Km Nebenbahn off the Bahnstrecke Bayerisch Eisenstein–Plattling (Bayerische Waldbahn). This bahnstrecke was initially built in 1884. There was a moderate amount of Glassmaking industry along the route. Forestry was initiated in 1908. By 1910, there appears to be an average of 3 stake cars per day of logs shipping out of Spiegelau. Additionally a large Glasshuette was operating in Spiegelau which may have been shipping a wagon of product. Prior to 1908, can be assumed there is limited traffic along the line. I am assuming the line would have been initially built without Hauptsignale (semaphore) signal towers. I have seen photos of the station in 2004 (Paul Eaton photos) and 1930’s which do not show any Hauptsignale (semaphore) towers. From this I assume that they never had any towers. Thus line was possibly run with turnout signals and signage. Realistic Nebenbahn signal operation: I have done a lot of searching in books and the internet and I can not find any details which explain how the trains would be signaled on the line. Does someone have a link or care to share a description of a realistic Nebenbahn train signal operation? I am having a bit of trouble translating the German from the references I have discovered. See: http://wbf-kk.de/Bilder/Weichenlaternen.html http://www.themt.de/org-0520-49.htm forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=96" target="_blank">http://germanrail.8.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=96 Weichensignale: What I have discovered to date is in Bavaria there were three different choices for simple turnouts signals. a) Ferngestellte Turnout lantern was usually a fixed box lantern with movable panels, b) Ortsgestellte rotating Turnout lantern or, c) the Z-disc. a simple plate signal Which of these weichensignale would be used on a Nebenbahn Bahnstrecke? What other operational and fixed signals would be installed? One last question: Are the weichensignale installed on all the turnouts in a yard, or are they only used on the Main line? I the early 1900’s does the Shunting operation require weichensignale or ground crew with lanterns? Regards Paul

Bf. Spiegelau
Hello Paul A lot of questions you have. :shock: I need a little while to answer because the problems you have with German are the same as I have with English. I think you need the track plan for your layout like this: Spiegelau see page 20 I take this plan and complete it with the signal and turnout informations you need. The main what I have do do is this, is this line declared as a branch line or not. In Germany a branch line has to be declared as such by the government in utilisation the EBO and not by the numbers of trains on a daily basis.

Franz, Just a quick initial response: On Bavarian branch lines the maximum speed limit was originally 40 kph, so semaphores were almost never used. Exceptions were junction stations - where the route diverged and single-armed entry signals were used - and on the junction with the main line where there were exit signals if the branch did not have its own track. There was no interlocking and apparently no warning bells (I must check that because I find it surprising). In effect, point signals did the job of semaphores. Stations and stops were usually heralded in Epoch II and later by a horizontal plank on 2 posts with white and black diagonal strips. At a crossing station, the train would halt at the signboard and announce its presence with a long whistle blast. If the crossing train was already in the station it replied: long-short-long (meaning approach). A short toot and the arriving train pulled into the loop and stopped by the H board. The last train to arrive had to leave first, on the orders of the stationmaster or, if there wasn't one, the guard. Off it went. After phoning through for clearance the guard of the remaining train gave the order to depart and it too left. HTH

Herr Franz and Mr Eaton; This is helpful. Sorry for the long set of questions, but I have been building this discussion over time. I am interested in modeling the time 1908 - 1912. This is the beguinning of the Forestry narrow Gauge with a large amount of manual labor at the log yard(holzlager). The Track plan from the train simulator appears to be from recent time. The Sagewerk did not exist untill 1920's I am searching for details around 1910. I have yet to find a good track plan for Epoch I. It does appear that the track plan was developed for a 3 gleis layout (hausgleis, Gutergleis and run-around) initially in 1880's. Later 2 or 3 gleis were added for the Glassworks and the Forest narrow gauge siding. Mr Eaton: What is the terminology "There was no interlocking and apparently no warning bells " This is the first I have seen this reference. The bahnstrecke had one passenger locomotive in the 1940's I do not know if there were more at the earlier time period. Therefore there would be no passenger train crossing. However, the Fright traffic was large enough to possibly require a seperate freight train. This would most likley complete all the shunting at all the bahnhofs along the bahnstrecke. Paul

Franz, Just a quick initial response: On Bavarian branch lines the maximum speed limit was originally 40 kph, so semaphores were almost never used. Exceptions were junction stations - where the route diverged and single-armed entry signals were used - and on the junction with the main line where there were exit signals if the branch did not have its own track. There was no interlocking and apparently no warning bells (I must check that because I find it surprising). In effect, point signals did the job of semaphores. Stations and stops were usually heralded in Epoch II and later by a horizontal plank on 2 posts with white and black diagonal strips. At a crossing station, the train would halt at the signboard and announce its presence with a long whistle blast. If the crossing train was already in the station it replied: long-short-long (meaning approach). A short toot and the arriving train pulled into the loop and stopped by the H board. The last train to arrive had to leave first, on the orders of the stationmaster or, if there wasn't one, the guard. Off it went. After phoning through for clearance the guard of the remaining train gave the order to depart and it too left. HTH Hello Paul That's all right, I studied the EBO, ESO and other rules and regulations. Hello Paul Franz This sings are used at branch lines.

Trapetztafel = necessary at all stations where more than one train can operate or trains cross or trains can to run past other trains. All trains have to stop and announce its presence with a long whistle blast.

Haltepunkttafel = A halt point is to be expected and the trains have to and announce its presence with a long whistle blast. List right of the track in the braking distance distance before the stop point (700 m until 1000 m at main lines and/or 150 m at secondary lines). This sign is also necessary if the Trapetztafel is behind a curve. Example for signal use

fig. A are Stations = Bahnhof fig. B are small stations, halt points = Haltepunkt

The remark about no interlocking comes from Zintl's book Bayerische Nebenbahnen. In Epoch I yet another point signal was employed in Bavaria. This appears to have been a simple square plate painted diagonally red and white and mounted on a long pole 3-4 feet high. I don't know how long they lasted and photos of them are rare. AFAIR all three types of other point signal were used, although I suspect the Z-Scheibe is the oldest and most likely to have been seen in Epoch II. German point levers have a large counterweight painted horizontally black and white. The principle is 'earth to earth' i.e. when the black half is lowest (nearest the earth) the lever is in its default setting. So I suspect on minor sidings, no point lanterns were needed as you could clearly see how the points were set. I will have a look at my photos and let you know if I come up with anything significant. Modelling point signals is a pain, especially if you want them to work. Firstly you can only get the standard DRG/DB ones off the shelf and they aren't cheap. If you want them to rotate prototypically or be lit, Weinert can do that, but it's even more expensive and quite fiddly. I don't know of anywhere that does Bavarian style point signals, but have seen the red and white ones scratch-built.

.... KBayStsB Nebenbahn Signale ... I am interested in modeling the time 1908 - 1912. This is the beguinning of the Forestry narrow Gauge with a large amount of manual labor at the log yard(holzlager). ... Paul Hello Paul, your question: "What signals are needet in the time 1908 - 1912 ?" After studying the rules and regulations of this period, I can say: "Think as the erectors of the line thought - as cheap as possible, as simple as necessary for the security". That means: - if no crossing or passing traffic - no special point signals are necessary (Z-Scheibe) The signalisation is operating as Paul wrote German point levers have a large counterweight painted horizontally black and white. The principle is 'earth to earth' i.e. when the black half is lowest (nearest the earth) the lever is in its default setting. So I suspect on minor sidings, no point lanterns were needed as you could clearly see how the points were set. - if no traffic at night - no illuminated point signals are necessary As Entry signals the Trapetztafel at both ends of the station are necessary

Stealing this thread for a slightly connected question: In Bayerische Nebenbahnen, page 112, there's a b/w picture of a sign I haven't seen anywhere else. It's square, white(?) bottom. On it is outlined a diamond shape in black(?). It's got the lettering PL (pfeiff & laut) above 15 (dekametres(?) to the road crossing seen in the background) in some dark but not black colour. In the picture the diamond's background colour is light to medium grey. What are the actual colours of this sign? Related to this thread: Chapter 8 of this book is dedicated to "Signal- und Fersprechanlagen" and agrees with the statements of previous postings in this thread. Cheers Olle

question: In Bayerische Nebenbahnen, page 112, there's a b/w picture of a sign I haven't seen anywhere else. It's square, white(?) bottom. On it is outlined a diamond shape in black(?). It's got the lettering PL (pfeiff & laut) above 15 (dekametres(?) to the road crossing seen in the background) in some dark but not black colour. In the picture the diamond's background colour is light to medium grey. What are the actual colours of this sign? Hello Olle, this is a PL board, P = pfeifen (whistle blast) L = läuten (to chime) and 15 is the number of maximum speed at the point of the the road crossing. Below are the two documented signals which used at the K.Bay.St.B. before the German standard (LP) signal board had to use. --- Bayerische Pfeif- und Läutetafeln ---

These boards regulate the instructions in front of, at and after the road crossings. They stood right beside the track, shortly before the road crossing. Signal No. 35 used: 1893 ~ 1907 When the signal board is clearly seen and readable, a long whistle blast is to given, at the signal board a long whistle blast is to given and after this it is to ring with the bell. The speed is limited to 10 km/h. Signal No. 37b used: 1907 up to the end of the 50th. Not includet in the DB signal book (DV 301) from 1959 At the signal board 2 times a long whistle blast is to given and after this it is to ring with the bell before, during and short after passing the road crossing. The speed is limited to 15 km/h. On lines with more then 40 km/h standard speed limit, the 15 is changed to 40 and the 40 km/h must given at the road crossing. You have to notice that the Bavarian PL boards are always had the P first and the L second :!: This is in opposite to the Prussian regulations (LP). The reason is very plausible, the whistle blast is louder and the distance to notice it greater. Therefor the Prussians hat to longer use the bell. Signal K7c

DV 301 - 1935 Is your question answered now :roll:

Is your question answered now :roll:Far beyond sufficient, thank you. :lol: /Olle

Hello; Is there a good modeling reference on how to implement the Weinert counterwieght for operation? If one is not using Peco track can these be modified to work with other track such as Tillig? Paul

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