How are Sales of German Models in your Country?
I ask this question because there seems to have been a huge drop in interest in European modelling in Australia over the past ten to twenty years. Some of that, no doubt, relates to the more recent availability of a wider range of Australian prototype models, but models from British manufacturers such as Hornby and Bachmann are very readily available where it can range from difficult to impossible get a new (as opposed to second hand) model of the European loco you want. For example, nobody is stocking Liliput here, except perhaps for the occasional shop having one loco. There are some small numbers of Roco items available new on eBay, but I have had an order in with the Australian importer for two Roco locomotives for nine months now (neither are limited edition and both from their current catalogue). I have been able to get some Marklin spares quite easily but have been waiting close to three months so far for others. As one would in such circumstances, I have started looking at overseas retailers for what I can't get locally. Looking at the U.K. as a source on the internet, I find plenty of items advertised but listed as not in stock. So is the German market healthy from a retail point of view, or is it merely a case of as a result of restructures (resulting from the purchases of) the major manufacturers and in one or two cases recent changes to British distributors, that things appear to be in a temporary 'slow down'? Or is it something to do with reduced sales - perhaps due to prices. Fleischmann, as good as they are, seem very expensive now compared to say Roco, with Liliput somewhere around Roco prices for steam locomotives, while I think Roco's diesel and electric locos are exceptionally well priced. Marklin have some nice entry models, but generally their loco prices are above the means of the average consumer (they always were more expensive, but much more affordable before they introduced technology such as high propulsion motors with variable speed settings, made DCC obligatory and added sound to some models). So, in the overall U.K. market, are sales being lost to say Hornby and Bachmann, whose models have improved enormously, have created a wise policy of making DCC optional and are much lower priced? I have over eighty German and Swiss locos, over two hundred items of European rolling stock and plenty of buildings and accessories. So while I have a second, smaller collection of British models, my investment (and interest) in German stock is substantial enough to put me in there for the long haul. As I intend to retire in a few months, I can see where I will actually want to increase the level of my purchasing (and model railway activity). I guess I am becoming a bit concerned about the fact that my investment and future modelling intentions are closely tied to the well being of the German and Austrian markets and their continuity of supply. Please forgive me if I sound overly worried about the 'state of play' (I am not a pessimist by nature), but there is precious little information and not many products, other than Fleischmann and to some extent Marklin, getting into Australia. If any member can suggest good options for me in purchasing Liliput and Roco in particular, I would be also most appreciative. Thanks and best wishes, Richard

It should be noted that, despite attempts by the Conservative party, the UK is actually part of Europe and therefore there is no divide between UK and European models. :lol: On a more serious note, the rise in interest in modelling UK outline has increased in recent years because of the plethora of superb models being released by Bachmann, Heljan and Hornby. In the meanwhile, German manufacturers have been in the doldrums with Roco, Fleischmann, Matrix and Kibri all suffering financial issues and takeovers. The rise of the Euro to near parity with Sterling does not help, neither does the rush to produce increasingly expensive models (note the new Trix BR03 reverses the trend at only 160Eu) The present recession will only increase the problem and the strange trading practices and attitudes of sellers on EBay.de* only adds to the problem. Tim It is still operating as a parochial closed market when compared with EBay.co.uk.

In the UK, my two nearest dealers (Lord&Butler and Totally Trains) seem to have dropped European models from their stock. Both shops used to have good stocks of Roco, fleischmann and Liliput but on recent visits they now have just small amoounts of unsold stock. I agree with Tim, that there has been a significant improvement in quality in rtr UK models which may have taken over from their German, Austrian and Swiss counterparts.

I think that the demise of European stock in non German hobby shops has been caused by the big internet dealers and to a lesser extent E Bay. In the not so distant past, European stock was very expensive and somewhat hit and miss in terms of availability. Import licences, outward currency flows and information was to say the least difficult. People did not really know what was available and how much it was worth. The mystic of Maerklin added to its price. Today, everyone has a good idea what new model trains are worth. Look at the net, do a rough currency conversion and you have a god idea how much you can buy it for. Go down to the local hobby shop ask how much it is and if it is over 20-30% dearer then you don’t order it. Sometimes the shop does not even know if its available! Then there is the aspect of getting it. Do you want this month or in six months time? If you live in Germany you have the luxury of impulse buying. Retailers are not going to have huge stock levels on the off chance that someone will walk in and just impulse buy a 300-600 (pick your currency) locomotive. If you want something you want it now (or at least within the next 4 weeks) if its available in Germany now. That being said, how often do we order in Early February and the item arrives in time for Christmas. If and it is a big if you have a good local dealer, then you may get it within 4 weeks of release, but the reality is that you should have it within 3-4 months of release depending on what else they have ordered. I gave up on the local dealer because of three issues, I was ordering stuff as soon as it was announced in Europe and he was not able to get it, his pricing broke the magic 30% barrier for what I could buy it direct for, but worst of all in my mind was that I was getting the stuff 6 months after it had been released in Germany. In my case I only buy new releases, and would pick the items up within a couple of days of him telling me that he had them, so price is an issue, there was little if any holding cost in the items I was buying. One fond memory is walking into a shop in Namur Belgium and going wow can I have this, this, this and this. Only problem was that they did not take credit cards. I said OK that’s a problem, you shut in 5 minutes, and I need to find an ATM. Their response was, that OK its down the road and round the corner. We will stay open for you. Very nice people. John

How are sales of German models in your country?
As far as the Hobby shop where I work, LGB is a big seller only around Christmas and that may be in part due to what is in stock in our store, however, LGB has not produced anything new in over a year since the Marklin takeover nor do we know at this time if/when there is new stock coming out. The LGB stock that is on the shelf for a long time ends up on Ebay and ends up selling right away. Z scale has grown in the US since the year 2000 and does not move in our store. As of late, it too has been put on Ebay and has sold somewhat-not as fast or good as the LGB. We do not store any other European brands/scales because they do not sell. There is one other store here that has a few Arnold kits in stock but they have not moved in over 8 years. There are a lot of stores here for trains and many model railroaders but the European stock you have to get from the internet.

This may be irrelevant but this is side by side comparison: At Christmas, Fleischmann intend to release the standard light goods loco of Southern Germany, the BR54.13 with an RRP of approx. 339Eu DCC ready Later this year Hornby will release the standard West Country 'maid of all work' the T9 4-4-0 with an RRP of approx. 100Eu DCC fitted Before anyone is foolish enough to pour scorn on Hornby's la-*test*-('") steam locos for the UK market, they are considered on a par with anything produced in China including much of Brawa* However on a more sombre note UK retailers are selling off European stock for as little as £67 plus P+P for a BR52.80 which does suggest that some European models were being offered at prices beyond their actual worth. In other words, more than the market will stand. For a further example of the market not supporting the RRP, see: http://germanrail.8.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=2314 Tim Hale *Before our Kiwi friend has a seizure and foams at the mouth, I suggest that if Model Railway Journal gives Hornby the thumbs up then they must be pretty good. I have three recent Hornby steam locos and each one is better than the last.

Seizure? Foams at the mouth? Sure you are talking about our Australian bretheran after their recent Rugby loss. Stuff that is getting made in China (at present) is showing a huge level of detail. As long as the quality control is there there should be no problems. John

I think that the demise of European stock in non German hobby shops has been caused by the big internet dealers and to a lesser extent E Bay. I think there is also a wider issue generally which has been touched on in some previous forum discussions - the demise in both the UK and Australia of many railway oriented hobby shops. In a city the size of Sydney (4 million people), I can only think of four hobby shops which are predominantly railway oriented (Model Railroad Craftsman, Woodpecker, Tom's Hobby Warehoue and Casula), and only one hobby shop which regularly carries N scale German stock (Hobbyco), although interestingly Woodpecker, a predominantly British shop, always seems to have some German HO. When I first moved to north-eastern New South Wales there were two hobby shops with significant railway stock but now there are none and my nearest shop is about 2.5 hours drive away. Before talking about savings from buying direct, the fuel costs alone for a return trip more than pay for postage! I understand from some previous posts that in London there are now no "railway dedicated" hobby shops and relatively few in the UK when compared with 10 years ago. I have a similar memories to John with a hobby shop in Innsruck - even though the shop owners spoke no English and I spoke no German, we both understood the word Visa and that was how I got my Arnold BR55! Greg

The lack of model railway shops in Central London is certainly a disappointment but this is probably more to do with London property rates than any general slump in model railways. In fact the model railway hobby seems to be going from strength to strength in the UK with a number of hobby shops expanding. Sadly the trend is largely in the modelling of British railways as previously mentioned. Standards of British modelling are improving and you only have to look at the number of magazines on sale in the shops to recognise that the market is solid. No, I think we are seeing a shrinkage of Continental (German, Swiss, Austrian) because of the improvement of UK off the shelf models and the price differential.

My two pence worth, We have lost the entrepreneurs who championed German HO :evil: . M.R Model Railways, Matt Ascough for one, another Gent based in Bala who promoted numerious companies including Brawa and Liliput + Hales of Hinckley with Rivarossi. These produced in your face advertising and organised shows and exibitions pushing HO to the fore. There customers service was also beyond reproach :D . Wheres all the enthusiasium gone from the importers and retailers :( . The old Marketing saying of, its like throwing mud at a wall, some sticks, some doesn't. I think a lot more mud needs to be generated! :roll: Sorry but it infuriates me. Cheers, David

No doubt someone will argue but in recent weeks my direct purchases from Germany are getting less as the German dealers are pricing themselves out of the market. NOTE, ALL BRAND NEW STOCK FROM DEALERS eg. Roco BR 50 DR 63253 £149.00 + £3.00 postage against 220Eu plus 17Eu porto. Trix 24325 Pwgs 41 £17.00 post free against 27Eu plus 17Eu porto. Faller 180559 £12.00 post free against 14,65Eu plus 17Eu porto. Lenz LVZ100 $149 post free against 220Eu plus 17Eu porto. OK, four random items but these were purchased within the past two months and other examples can be easily found. Perhaps the last example is unfair as it was purchased in the US but even so it represented a considerable cost saving over German prices. In particular, the automatic 17Eu porto because DHL sets a minimum but surely the buyer should be able to choose the level of protection for the purchase? Can anyone explain why an 8Eu packet of Preiser figures warrants a 17Eu minimum porto? Far too many dealers dictate their policy on postage -tail wagging the dog. In the meantime, Arcadia and Gaugemaster are getting my business, because even without the postage charges UK prices are rather keen. BOTTOM LINE There are still those UK retailers who charge £'s for Eu's but the difference in postage kills that problem at low value orders. Maybe, the UK retailers will be upping the prices in 2008, so buy now while you have the chance. Tim

I'm not sure I agree with David's comments above about lack of marketing effort by the retailers of German railways. Both my local continental retailers make a major effort both in advertising and exhibiting at the major shows, however a discussion today with the owner of one of these shops highlighted how difficult business is in this sector. I see poor stock turn and low profits so you can hardly blame the retailers for going out of business.

The question asked about how German models are doing in your country and there have been a number of responses that seems to suggest that 'not very well' seems to be a common theme. This may not be true of all countries served by this English language forum but if we consider the possibility that the majority who have entered the discussion are either in the US, UK or Antipodes, then let us look at their issues. In the US, the Euro has passed its early parity with the USD and price of an expensive product (even in its home market) must be a huge factor. The number of serviceman who bought Maerklin on service in Germany must be reducing, as have US Forces in Germany since '90, that fan base must be shrinking apart from a few diehards. Other factors contributing to the downturn may include the not so recent discovery of steam by Athearn and MTH etc. In the UK, the current RTR market is booming (but not for much longer) as the Hornby and Bachmann have begun to sell a really great product but there is more to this than one might expect. In the past, not only was the product below the standards of Germany but the model infrastructure was not available, there were railways but not much else with no decent buildings, road vehicles, scenery etc. This time, the manufacturers have ensured that no aspect of building a respectable British outline is overlooked. The Skaledale and Scenecraft range of resin RTR buildings and vehicles are superb, the recent Settle&Carlisle range is amongst the finest buildings ever to grace a model railway. What is more important is that they are finished and cheaper than a German kit of an unknown and strange prototype. What of the Antipodes? A growing interest in domestic railways and subsequent supply must have hurt the German market moreover given a choice for the modeller between two foreign systems both working equally well but one cost over 100% more than the other, there is going to be a noticeable drop in the sale of German items. Red herring time I do not think that internet sales will replace the 'walk in the door' sales due to the cost of postage and to ensure that the model works properly (out of five Roco BR50's offered at a dealer*, only one had a straight footplate and ran properly). The loss of retailers offering German models is not the cause of a shrinking market it is the result. Summary Is it going to get better? With a world recession, sky high prices and strong domestic markets , I cannot see any blue skies for German models outside Germany. In fact, I see only further consolidation and rationalisation with the owners of Maerklin selling the Trix brand as it does not produce a core product, the same will happen to Roco and Fleischmann whilst the building kit manufacturers will really suffer. Is there an answer? I have no idea of the future, five years ago, on another forum, I predicted the collapse of Matrix and was vilified for my suggestion therefore I just hope that the market will hunker down and come out the other end. In the meantime, I am buying certain items that will disappear within five years. * I can enjoy buying in Germany because I travel as part of my business but does this apply to everyone?

Thanks for this feedback. I am finding it very helpful, if a little saddening. I think the fact that there are now four monthly British outline only railway modelling magazines on the market simultaneously (Railway Modeller, Model Rail, British Railway Modelling and Hornby Magazine), besides Model Railway Journal - and all are getting enough sales or advertising to make them viable does go to show how buoyant the British market is. I love locomotives in particular and collect way too many of them. I love German designs of all eras and I also love British steam of all re-grouping and 'big four' railways, as well as BR standards. I know this is over the top and all up I have a hundred and thirty locos and still going (and storage cabinet space almost taking up as much room as layout space) - but maybe you do only live once - so just in case I'm not going to be restricted on what locos I buy in this life. The point is - as Tim says - I can buy an excellent British loco straight from the shop at a third the price of its relative German counterpart. So of late my British collection is actually growing at a faster rate than my German collection - even if the latter is still larger. The other reason for this is I order my German stock and wait and wait and wait - so naturally the British stock will be growing at a faster rate because of this as well. Greg is right about Woodpecker at Pendle Hill in Sydney. They are a very good shop and usually have a couple of items of German 'N', though I only occasionally find German HO there. They are a lovely old fashioned service type shop. It is the best place in Sydney to buy British OO or N from. Greg, you didn't list Train Trader at Pymble on Sydney's North Shore (near Pymble Railway Station). If you haven't been there it is definitely worth a visit (as it would be for you on one of your trips to Sydney, John). Plenty of Marklin, new and second hand and some older second hand Fleischmann and Roco in particular. You can -*test*-('") before buying, which I always think is important with older locos (e.g. Roco with the four digit catalogue numbers). The owners do know German stock. Has anyone tried Reynaulds in the USA or a similar world wide mail order firm? I haven't - and this is another way I am looking at getting things. What I do want to avoid is any store that advertises large ranges of items that are not in stock and even worse debits my credit card before actual shipping. Thanks again for your comments and thoughts, Richard