Wim. My main point was the DB use of such coaches at that time. But when you look at other photographic scenes of northern german Hbf you find whole trains of pre war stock still in use,in what appear to be D-Zug with 01.10 locos in charge. Interesting? David

Thta's certainly interesting. The old DB-coaches like the 1936-wagen (Eilzugwagen Gruppe 36, like the Roco-model) were in use until the late 1970's. There were a long time not enough new coaches build from the 1950's to replace all the pre war oldies.

Thanks again David Your answers clear up a lot of queries that had been mulling around in my mind. I had overlooked the fact that the Fehmarn bridge was only opened in 1963. Before this the express would have travelled to Kobenhaven via Flensburg. This explains the 4 coaches (3,4,5,10) to Grossenbrode listed in a Zugbildungsplan of 1957 presumably for the ferry crossing from there (opened in 1951 I believe) - but why where the 4 coaches not together? Still so many questions. I think I will have a break from putting questions to members and concentrate on building up my coach/loco stock for the time being. I recall you asked of manufacturers names who make/made the BR 01.10 - Wim tells me that Roco and Lilliput both made the loco in the 1990’s - I have seen a few of the Lilliput model for sale on ebay. I’ll have to save up though - maybe a christmas present from she-who-must-be-obeyed. I am learning a great deal here about the coach types and formations and also had my eyes opened regards loco related logistics. It’s probably only the tip of the iceberg but I now thirst for more information so I will be looking at and searching the forum regularly. I hope the duscussion continues about the Holland-Skandinavien-Express. How about this for a three way points/turnout - http://www.kuestenbahn.de/fehmarn/fotos/put96_04.jpg Thanks again David and all who have contributed - please keep em commin' though Andrew

Andrew, Your answers clear up a lot of queries that had been mulling around in my mind. I had overlooked the fact that the Fehmarn bridge was only opened in 1963. Before this the express would have travelled to Kobenhaven via Flensburg. This explains the 4 coaches (3,4,5,10) to Grossenbrode listed in a Zugbildungsplan of 1957 presumably for the ferry crossing from there (opened in 1951 I believe) - but why where the 4 coaches not together? Still so many questions. David, Any chance of a scan of the Zugbildungsplan of 1957,please? The three way point would make a good scratch building project :8) I bet the max speed over it would not be above 20km :? Enjoy your modelling. David

Hi David Do you really think the coaches would have been shunted at that speed over those points? Being unique, it looks as though they were scratchbuilt also. The Zugbildungsplan is actually an extract by from a 1957/58 plan:- http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9924/f191zugbuildung2195758ny2.png - NB Wim started the thread. I can now see why coach 10 is not linked to the other 3 as it joined the F191 at Amsterdam. See, I'm slowly learning thanks to you all. Time now to consolidate the knowledge aquired over the past weeks and do a little independant research. Andrew

Hi Andrew. Many thanks for the link. I really think that a section on the forum containing Zugblidungsplan would be a real asset.How about it Tim? My turn with the questions. The DR -Berlin bound coach would have travelled to Osnabruck or Hamburg? The DB - Bad Harzburg coach would have been removed at Osnabruck? I think the stock due to catch the ferry would have done so at Grossenbrode? Regards. David. PS. I think 10km is nearer the mark.

Hi again David FYI - I was very interested about the reason for the 4 coaches with the destination Grossenbrode. I have an extract from the Fahrplan for 1960 - http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/8346/fahrplansommer1960ah2.jpg - which lists Grossenbrode Kai and the next stop as Gedser (Denmark). This may also answer some of your questions. The ferry port in Grossenbrode opened in 1951 and the ferry sailed to Gedser, a distance of 36 miles, and onto Kobenhaven (Puttgarden to Rodby as we know opened in 1963 and is much less at 11 miles). Before 1951 the train went to Nyborg via Flensburg but I'm not too sure if the train then proceeded by ferry across the sea and continue onto Kobenhaven. A Zugbildungsplan of this time may help and I think a section on the forum devoted to Zugblidungsplan certainly would be a fantastic asset. I don't know of any other forum that has such a feature. Andrew

More questions. In he fahrplan of 1960 it looks as though the F191 only went as far as Grossenbrode so did passengers catch the ferry to Gedser continuing the journey to Kobenhaven on another train - the E114? (see previous post link). So was the Grossembrode ferry only a passenger boat? Gedser looks as though it could have been a train ferry port at one time (Google earth) In the 1957 zugbildungsplan 4 coaches stop at Grossenbrode and 3 other coaches go on to Kobenhaven presumably via a ferry crossing but from where? Nyborg? I think I am getting in too deep and starting to lose the plot- can the experts help?

What started out as a single goal, ie the 1967 H-S-E coach formation, has since grown into my obsession to discover all I can about the Holland-Skandinavien- Express. This Express, along with many others, e.g. Nord Express. Italia Express, Schweiz Express, Hispania Express etc which all passed thro Puttgarden on their way to Kobenhaven (some even beyond) were seriously major international express trains and must have had a huge influence on post war european unity. As you probably know the long distance train network started in 1946 and in 1950 the trains to Copenhagen went via Flensburg and onto Nyborg for the train ferry. I believe the Danish and German Railway authorities jointly funded a ferry crossing from Grossenbrode to Gedser which opened in 1951, until when I'm not sure, but the opening of the Puttgarden/Rodby ferry in 1963 must have sealed it's fate. Anway, in my quest I found the following link with some very interesting photos all in connection with the Grossenbrode-Gedser ferry traffic. I do not know the train/coach types in the phots but there seems to be a huge variety. If the page is blank on opening the link look down the left side of the page and select Grossenbrode-Gedser http://www.burg-fehmarn.de/?show=faehrverkehr_vor_63 Enjoy the photos Catch up with you all later - Andrew

another photo found on DREHSCHEIBE. 09.04.1968 North bound. David

Holland Skandinavien Express
Thanks David. Nice of you not to forget my interest. As you find them please posting the photos or anything in connection with the train. I am slowly collecting the coaches and have gathered the NS and DB coaches so far. I believe Brawa will bring out the Polish Hecht later this year and Heljan will also release the DSB Listra CC coaches later in the year. The Stalen D, I bought on ebay, seemed to be a scratch built model and there were a few things not quite right - buffers far too high, coach length short etc.....so I decided to build my own. The Kleinspoor NS Stalen D baggage van or the Philotrain version (in metal) are too expensive for me. To complete the Kleinspoor model one has to buy the bogies separately with the final cost for the van being €100+. The Philotrain model is brass (methinks) and sells for over €120 on the Dutch 'Marktplatts.nl' site. I will post some progress photos of my model building project here in the 'Technology' section soon. Here's a Photo from Drehescriebe of a V160 leading a V200 in the F191. The V160 is a Lok that I really know nothing about (my thanks to Helmut Philip for the photo):- Am 4. Juni 1966 hat die V160 004 als Vorspannlok vor der V200 118 Einfahrt mit dem Skandinavien-Holland Express in den Hamburger Hauptbahnhof: Regards - Andrew

Hi Andrew, Thanks for the update, project looks to be coming on well. Regards, David