Holland-Skandinavien-Expreß coach formation (Part 2)
Hello all I have been given much help by a forum member (many thanks to David) regardind a typical coach formation for the Holland-skandinavien-Express circa 1965. What I would like to know is if the DB Zugbildungsplan for express trains was strictly (same coach configuration for every trip) or loosely adhered to. How often would coach configuarations be reviewed/changed? The colour photos below (Holland-Skandinavien-Express) appear to show the same coach formation for the same express on different dates in the same year I presume (circa 1965). The b/w photo, taken in Osnabrück (H S E headed by 01 1058), is circa 1967 with a different coach behind the tender - presumably a differet coach configuration. I am a relative newcommer and beginner to this forum and cannot expect ever to become even half as knowledgeable as an average forum member. I have great holes in my knowledge on German railways and so my contribution in terms of knowledge will be minimal - apologies (I feel a little selfish). many thanks

Andrew, Don't worry. This forum is here for people, like you, to learn. To answer your question... The formation would be have to be fixed. This was necessary for many reasons: The exact composition is published on the 'Wagenstandanzeiger' at all stations. The coach numbering has to be consistent in order to support a seat reservation system. The daily operation should be a consistent pattern, supported by the working timetable, which also specified the details of the train composition. Obviously there would have been exceptions, e.g. where some section of the train would arrive too late to be attached to their normal train and have to be sent on separately. Changes to this plan would occur at the times specified and publicised in the timetable. The timetable itself is normally reviewed annually.

Hi Alan Fantastic - your knowledge certainly saves people a great deal of research time with no guarantee of sucess. May I ask one more related question? In the first photo I have been reliably informed that the last 3 coaches (of a 10 coach train) would be DB 26.4m coaches - would you know what coaches they might have been? Many, many thanks

26.4m refers to the most typical DB coach on long distance services during the epochs III and IV. These were classified as Aüm or Büm.

Many thanks Alan I assume these coaches would be split say 2 x 2nd class Büm and 1 x 1st class Aüm? Would you be able to confirm? I've spent many months scouring the web for information regards the Holland-Skandinavien-Express gathering lots of photo's etc but I was still missing vital bits of information. In using this forum I have completed the picture in less than a week - brilliant. My thanks again to David and Alan.

Andrew, I think it would be safe to assume that the DB 26.4m coaches are Bum-ABum-Bum. All types produced by Roco. David

Andrew, I have found some photos dated 1968 of the train. The DB coaches now look to be all 26.4m types,it still has the CIWL sleeping car,but not a separate DSG dining Car. I wonder if DB changed to the half passenger/half diner as used on the Ostend-Koln expresses at the time. NS coaches seem to have remained the same types as before. Once I have looked at what I have found,I will get back to you. David

Hi David - thanks for the continued interest/help. Sorry I couldn't get back sooner but I went a visiting on Sunday. Regards your comment 'I wonder if DB changed to the half passenger/half diner' - Here is a link to a photo of the H S Express in 1968 with a CIWL Restaurant Car. The mystery deepens. http://www.jarnvagsframjandet.se/klartspar/pdf/2-2005.pdf - see page 28 I also have a couple of interesting shots here:- 1 - http://www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/?action=showpic&pic=1398 - I wonder what type of coach they are in? 2 - http://www.ravnsbak.dk/Railway/germany/db-dr%201974-1978/photos/railways%20jernbaner%20Germany%2019760510%2001%20Hamburg%20Hbf%20DB%20a.html - NS Luggage van 1976 in Hamburg Hbf I keenly look forward to your feedback on your investigations. Again - I am indebted to you all - many thanks

Andrew and David, Did you discover this link already ? http://drehscheibe.ist-im-web.de/forum/read.php?31,3002078,3016669

Hi Alan I have seen this thread before, and thanks for your interest and help. As I'm sure you will know 'Hoekema', who started the thread, also wants to model the H S Express of the epoch III era. When I have the full picture I may contact him to compare notes - if he speaks English of course. Thanks again

Andrew, it's interesting to note that 'Hoekema' was asking for these details exactly a year ago to the day. From what I can gather from a dutch forum based on the 1961/ 1962 timetable, a DSB AB and DB B departed from Amsterdam and joined the main train from the Hook of Holland at Amersfoort. The main portion was described as follows: 1x NS AB + 1x DB AB + 1x B optionally NS or DB + 1x B DB + 1x A DB + 1x WR CIWL + 1x AB SJ + 1x D NS + 1x B optionally NS or DSB

Andrew, I have found another image in a book of the first photo,which proves that the CIWL is a WR and not a WL. This of course made me look at what on first impression looked to be a DSG WR,which of course it is not,it is a DSB AB. Regards, David

Thanks Alan and David Your info, Alan, fills in another missing piece of the jigsaw. I did not appreciate the significance of why a name plate I had seen for the HSE train included Amsterdam CS . I now understand, after looking closely at my 1976 fahrplan, that the Amsterdam train was a connecting portion of the Express joining, as you say, at Amerfoort. Another section incidently came from Leiden connecting at Utrecht. All interesting stuff - to me anyway. Regards your reference to the 1961/62 timetable I presume that the 1965 formation, which I seek, would differ from the 1961/62 formation but interesting comparison nevertheless. I understood most of the anachronyms but I could not work out what DE, SJ or the D in '1x D NS' stood for - help me please!!! David, I see you identified the CIWL as a Dining Car and so I had another look at my copy of a DB information leaflet for 'Skandinavien Finnland - Sommer 1968'. It actually lists the HSE having a CIWL Dining Car in the train from Hoek to Puttgarden (not Schlafwagen as I reported earlier). I presume DSB AB means Danish coach split 1st/2nd class? This is great information which is definetely helping to 'complete the jigsaw' and is certainly making me more aware of the fascinating world of German International Express trains - well at this moment the HSE anyway; and later? I'm starting to have ideas. At the moment it looks as though I will model the Holland-Skandinavien-Express as in the very first photo in this thread (circa 1965). If you do uncover any more bits of info. I would really appreciate it. Thank you both very much - bis später

Hi Alan - many thanks for the info. Silly me! I don't see DE either (second time round). Those coaches originating in different countries must have been a logistical nightmare for the various national railways. I would say that the 1961/62 Holland-Skandinavien-Express was truly an International Express. What a fantastic sight seeing a BR 01.10 heading the express at 130km/hr with the 'burning of Rome' effect. Andrew