Digital Control Equipment
Hi Guys, Neils original discussion is/was getting a bit off track should we say. It has been an interesting thread though. Now in the sake of fairness here are my thoughts on Digital control equipment. I have deliberately only passed comment on the bits that I have played with. There are a lot out there so others might like to comment on them. I have played with the following control equipment Marklin 6021 Marklin Central Station Marklin Mobile station Uhlenbrock Intellibox Uhlenbrock profi control (it was limited to 500 and has the wheel and levers like a loco cab, and there are at least 3 in NZ!) Uhlenbrock DAISY ESU hand held controller Digitrax Super Chief I have never been a great fan of the intellibox. I don’t know why but it just does not do it for me, but the guys who I know who have one think its great. I have never had any problem with my 6021 (but it is now starting to play up sometimes, but it is 10 years old so I have got my moneys worth.) I have been under whelmed with the Central Station. Yes Steph I know its made by ESU, the marklin rip off was some down under humour! That being said I really like the MFX chips. Drop the loco on the layout, the CS sees that it is there and downloads its details and you are ready to play. What I don’t like is the time it takes, about 2-3 minutes, and I have heard that if the CS sees more than one new loco this 2-3 minutes goes out to 4-5 per loco. There are still some issues with it, no need to go into them, but hopefully these are being addressed by both Marklin and ESU. The profi control is the ultimate boys toys. Difficult to get control of a loco with if you don’t know what your doing, but I must say, driving a class 110 in gauge one by looking at a tv (reception from a camera in the 110 looking out the front cab window) is great fun. I like the ESU handheld, it has grown on me and best of all you can plug it into the 6021 or the intellibox. Some people don’t like the wheel, but I don’t find it a problem. The DAISY is better than the MS but both are ok to use, the fred is easy to use one handed the MS is a bit of a struggle to use 1 handed. That being said, the MS is great for small kids (4-5 yo). Give them the right train (Thomas, percy, pigs) and they have a ball! I think that there are far to many buttons on the super chief, and I find it harder to get control of a loco with this than with the profi control. However, I know a lot of people who have these and they think they are great. I personally think that control equipment is like wine. When you find something that you like you should use it. However it is important to look and see what else is out there apart from you own manufacturer of choice. Like others have said FMZ was such a closed system that in some ways it was doomed to failure (shades of Hornby zero 1 maybe?) I have read good reports about Zimo but have not seen it in action, and the same goes for Lenz chips. I hope for the sake of the British modellers that Hornby’s new system takes off. But IMHO train manufacturers should leave the manufacturing of control equipment and chips to others like ESU, Uhlenbrock, Lenz, Zimo etc John

But IMHO train manufacturers should leave the manufacturing of control equipment and chips to others like ESU, Uhlenbrock, Lenz, Zimo etc Actually, they do... Uhlenbrock > Fleischmann, Piko Lenz > Roco, Atlas, LGB ESU > Maerklin, Trix (Trix systems, selectrix 2nd generation) MÜT > Trix (Selectrix digital 1st generation) What model manufacturers do? Well, they only request features, dimensions or visual design of the equipment and/or chips, actual electronics and programming is made elsewhere. If you look closely, Intellibox is identical to Fleischmann TwinCenter and Piko's Digi-Power-Box, what differ is software: Intellibox is multi protocol (MM, DCC, SX) Fle. is twin-protocol (FMZ and DCC) Piko's box is single-protocol (DCC only) All of these are made actually by Uhlenbrock. As Maerklin took over Trix, they have similar digital equipment too! On the outside, their MobileStations are the same, but inside they are very different: Maerklin's MS is single protocol (actually it's dual, but only in MM domain - MM and Mfx) Trix's is dual protocol (SelecTrix and DCC) Both components are made actually by ESU, although one can't buy ESU's MS, one can buy CentralStation / ECoS. Talking about Maerklin, original format is MM... Maerklin-Motorola... Motorola did all of the core electronics (chips, processors etc...)! There is also a few smaller manufacturers that supply generic or specific decoders to the model-maker companies. Bottom line is that all of the hard work is done by electronic companies, not by the model manufacturers.

AFAIK Lenz did most of electronics and system components for generic Maus. For new Multimaus I'm not sure, but I think that Lenz did it too.

I know this is in grave danger of turning into a thread along the lines of 'my system is better than your system' but it may be of interest to offer an alternative view for comparison: I was after a few things when I went DCC; good running, a system that could be used with equipment from both sides of the pond and a way of getting rid of control panels - all the layouts I'm involved with were designed for walk-around control. That removed most of the console systems from my list including the ZTC and Uhlenbrock. Now that also means that the ESU and Hornby systems. I tried a Digitrax system, but the number of buttons was truly bewildering. and very quickly ended up with a shortlist that had only two manufacturers on it: Zimo and Lenz. On the grounds of cost (and standardisation) I went for the Lenz Compact - ironic really as it's effectively a console controller. It is small and light enough to be wandered around with and with the LH30 handheld unit becomes a very handy system with true walkround conttrol. Useful too that at the time it was the closest to a fully featured DCC system, with full programming capabilities, addressing for 100 locos, 128 speed steps. Its only real weeknesses were the lack of f5 - f12 and no four-digit addressing. The driving interface is very simple; resembling a conventional controller with buttons for direction and a big throttle knob. I've also tried the other two Lenz systems, finding the LH90 (with it's rotary speed control) preferrable to the LH100. So, with the Compact, I ended up with an affordable, adaptable system that enabled me to get away from a control panel. And locos from both sides of the Atlantic with factory-fitted decoders run on it with no problems. Couldn't have been happier :wink: Steph

Oh, Compact :D Steph, how do you control points ? Directly from the Compact, or from additional controller?

Steph, It was never my intention that this would turn into a my system is better than anyone else’s. I hope that those who have used a number of systems will comment about their own views of the ones that they have used. My personal view is that if you have only used one system then you are going to have a natural bias towards it. My layout has a 6021. Yes it has some faults, and when it comes time to upgrade it, then, I am likely to buy something that I have already tried. This will most likely be the ECOS. Nicholas, My comment about manufactures is badly worded. The sentiment that I was trying to make was that the manufacturers should not chip their locomotives. I should be able to choose. That being said, all locomotives that I buy from now on (ok here may be the odd one without) will have ESU sound chips in them. Imagine in the perfect world You order a locomotive from a shop, tell them what chip you want in it and there you go. It still amazes me that ESU released the MFX sound chip retro fit kit before Marklin released the SVT 137! Marklins original protocol way back in 1985 was Lenz, then they moved to Motorola, now to ESU. John Can someone explain why the digitrax hand held needs so many buttons in less than 30 words?

Just to chip in with my two bobs worth. I have ordered an Ecos to use with my new layout. My rationale was that most model makers with digital sound tend to use ESU Loksound and that maximum benefit would be attained by using the controller made by the same manufacturer. Also I require a degree of automated control and the shuttle feature offers me this without having to resort to a computer package. I can also use my Lokmaus 2 via the Ecosniffer as a handheld. The new Bachmann system is made by ESU and is essentially an ESU beginners set. It uses infra red to transmit data from the handheld to the base station and it is fully comatible with the Ecos. I may get one of these to use as a remote control.

Nicolas, Steph, how do you control points ? Directly from the Compact, or from additional controller? After the fiasco with the analoge system on Dreimühlentalbahn, a search or I would stop or not and the consequent decision to continue on my own, I had to find an alternative way to controle the layout and built it in by myself. After long discussions with people from different companies it became clear to me that I was going to install two seperate digital systems. One to control points, routes and signals via my controle panel with scaled down leverbank and one to run the trains with walkaround controllers. For the switching system I choose the units from Littfinski LDT, as it offers the possiblity to direct decoders via the leverbank and toggle switches. http://www.ldt-infocenter.com/index.htm For driving trains I will use the LH90 set from Lenz with additional LH 90 controllers and LV102 booster This means 1 cable with four lines for switching and 1 cable with two lines for power to the rails. The digital control line between the facia plug-in units is via 5-6m long signaling cable with western plugs. regards Jacq

Tim, The ECOS is a techno thing, no doubts about it at all, but it does look good :D But you are correct about cost. Some of these control systems are now more expensive to buy than some of the sound equiped Brawa locomotives! As for any having snob value, never really thought about that. I suppose 10 years ago my 6021 was a status symbol :? but now they are pretty cheap second hand, so it didn't last long. John

Tim, My daughter is quite happy playing on my layout with a Mobile Station. She is almost 6. Its just her choice of trains I have issues with! John

Do any of you use computer control ? It allows you to either enjoy watching the trains, or entertain the visitors/spectators, while the trains run automatically. You can always take over all or part of the operation either via clicking a track diagram on the screen or more realistically , using a purpose built controlling board e.g. with from and to buttons as shown here:

So far, I've only used the Mobile Station that came with my start set. For those who are not familiar with it, it's the Marklin hand controller that can be used as a peripheral to a central station or control trains on its own. Standalone, which is how I use it, it can control up to 10 trains at once and has 9 function keys. Through a supplied connector box you hook up power to the controller and power to the tracks, and the controller does everything else. Since I bought a 220V system (the booster has since been replaced by my supplier!) I used the accessory outputs of an old Marklin transformer to power it. Engines are programmed by either selecting them by catalogue number from the database or inventing new ones. There is a limited ability to program engines, but engines found in the database can have acceleration, volume, etc. changed if the database says they can. I don't know if you can add these features to new engines. I also have a digital crane, and this is found in the database and can be controlled, unfortunately without pictograms showing up next to the function keys. My controller was replaced twice because of flaws, and the decoder in the engine once. So far, the controller works fine. The main speed control is a knob that you turn clockwise to speed up and counterclockwise to slow down, pressing the knob changes direction. If there is a useability flaw it would be the sensitivity of the knob to the speed at which you turn it. If you turn it too fast the controller ignores the input and, you know, sometimes you really want to change the speed of an engine quickly! The problem with the first controller I received was that with small changes of the control it would unexpectedly set the speed to maximum, causing much distress. It took a while to figure out the ergonomics of the thing, but it's like a gameboy controller, sort of horizontal. My kids might be better served by a simple knob, but I think it's easier than the old power pack was, with that negative reversing-relay maneuver. My boys are 2.5 and 4, and the 4-year-old has just about mastered it but the younger is a little more brusque with it. He is keen to learn, though. I put one of those clear plastic sticker things on it to protect the plastic screen over the display from scratches. I think it's quite useable, assuming you don't have to mess with CVs and such, or accessories. The question of motorola vs DCC is becoming somewhat moot since a lot of systems seem to be able to control both. If you don't like the systems now, wait a year and things will be different. When I need a full system (accessories, programming, etc.) I'm leaning towards something like the intellibox, which can use the mobile station as a controller and can control DCC and motorola formats. Sorry if I droned on too long about something so trivial! RK

Nicolas, Quote: Steph, how do you control points ? Directly from the Compact, or from additional controller? After the fiasco with the analoge system on Dreimühlentalbahn, a search or I would stop or not and the consequent decision to continue on my own, I had to find an alternative way to controle the layout and built it in by myself. After long discussions with people from different companies it became clear to me that I was going to install two seperate digital systems. One to control points, routes and signals via my controle panel with scaled down leverbank and one to run the trains with walkaround controllers. Or not. I use the Compact or LH30 to control the points. No problem for a small number of points as you can remember where 'point 1' or 'point 5' is. Admitteldy it'd get hard at point number 87! :wink: I've found it useful on larger layouts to use one bus system connected to the track for the locos to run, and a second that has all the point decoders on it. Each is connected througha large (10A) on/off switch to the booster/base unit in question. That way, should you need to do a little fault finding or overcome a problem if you've driven through an incorrectly set poinht, you can turn off the locos with the switch, change the point and then carry on. But two seperate digital control systems? Complete overkill IMHO. Were I building a large layout now I might use a PC to control the routes (particularly useful in a fiddleyard) using a Lenz computer interface into a set 90, or maybe a SPROG (if it's possible), but even then I don't see a reason to have two seperate systems. In either case, the sooner someone brings out a 'route decoder' rather than a 'point decoder' the better... Steph

Steph, In either case, the sooner someone brings out a 'route decoder' rather than a 'point decoder' the better... Littfinski has a route decoder RM-DEC-88 together with the Keycom unit. With one unit it is possible to set 8 routes ( each one with a max of 16 points) When the route is set, it is not possible to set conflicting points. See the website or the Miba extra Modelbahn digital no 7 for more details. Using 2 seperate systems, starting with the switching system still allows for analoge running with conventional controls. My choice is based on the interference of driving functions when switching ( light dimming, etc) as seen on some club layouts. This choice also enables a more prototypical running of the layout. It is still possible to set local points like the handpoints in industrial sidings regards Jacq

Tim, I agree with your minimalist approach. Digital loco control, manual points control. When I investigated for the jump into DCC, I much appreciated the beginners-friendliness of Lokmaus II set, tested at a friend of mines' layout. But the severe drawback was (is) the impossibility to read CVs, hence a lot of tricks to program correctely, and also some decoders "fried up". So I got a Lenz Set 90, and I didn't regret doing so. Albeit slightly less intuitive, Lenz' manuals (and after-sale service) are far better than Roco's. If I were to begin today, probably I would go for the Compact plus an accessory lokmaus II handheld (from ebay.de at 25€), just to cut back the initial investment.