Chancellor's coach
Hi guys, recently acquired the Lilliput model of the above and wondered what type of formation would have accompanied it, had Willi Brandt decided to have any awayday round about 1975! Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter? Dave.

No takers? Can any of our German colleagues advise?

Sorry Dave, I read your question, but ll the information about this is at home on my PC. I got 5 or 6 different original train arrangements with different chancellor's coaches, from Adenauer to Brandt (or even Schmidt?). I will have a look at the file tonight.

Thank you, Martin. The vehicle in question is one of the skirted variety as currently portrayed by Lilliput. Regards, Dave.

Um, just a remark about the timeframe. You said 1975, but in 1974 Willy Brandt was suceeded by Helmut Schmidt, and the old skirted Kanzlerwagen (wasn't it originally built for Hermann Göring?) was replaced by a new wagon in the style of the TEE-coaches (type WGSmz803).

Thank you for this enlightening piece Johannes. I clearly need to study my German history a little more closely. My interest in the DB also stretches back a few years prior to 1975, so I can still accommodate this vehicle and perhaps get away with its being hauled by my Roco 011! Nevertheless, it will still be nice to have a reasonably plausible train formation in which to run it. Kind regards, Dave.

Last not least I found the file on my old computer. I got two trains for Konrad Adenauer: (Coach numbers given in brackets, when known) 1) V80 + SdrPw4ü(F)-39 (10 293) + Salon4ü-37 (10 205) + SalonR4ü-37 (10 241) + WLAsüge-20 (20 204 (DSG)) 2) V200 + SdrMasch4üe37/57 (8903 Ffm) + WLAB4üm (36 206 (DSG)) + SalonR4ü-37 (10 242) + Salon4ü-37 (10 205) + A4üe-38 (11 648) (Basically the origin of Märklin's Adenauer set) Then there is one train for Ludwig Erhard 01 or E 10 or V200 + A4üm + Salon4ü-37 (10 205) + SalonR4ü-37 (10 242) + WR4ü-39 (DSG) + WLAB4ümh 33200 + SalonBegl4ü-37 (10 222) Kurt Georg Kiesinger used a train, too: loco (E10 435 uncertain) + MaschPw4ü (ex SdrPw4ü-39) (5807 Ffm) + Salon4ü-38 (10 208) + SalonR4ü-37 (10 242) + SalonBegl4ü-37 (10 222) Willi Brandt is next: loco + Salon4ü-38 (10 208) + WRümh 132 + WLABmh 175 + WLABmh 175 + WLABmh 175 + Avümh 111 Last not least Helmut Schmidt got two different trains: 1) 110.3 (110 335-4) + SalonR4ü-37 (10 242) + Salon4ü-38 (10 208) + WLABmh 175 + WRümh 132 + WLABmh 175 + Avümh 111 + WLAsüge-20 2) loco + Salon4ü-38 (10 208) + Avümh 111 + WRümh 132 + WLABmh 175 + WLABmh 175 + WLABmh 175 + Aüm (So still old skirted coaches in these trains) Unfortunately there is significant lack of apropriate sleeping cars in H0 scale: no WLAsüge-20 no WLAB4üm with 12 compartments and München Kassel bogies (might be replaced by one with 11 compartments and Minden-Deutz bogies) no SalonBegl4ü-37 (10 222) (might be replaced by normal skrited sleeping coach) The SdrMasch4üe37/57 (8903 Ffm) might be replaced by Märklin's skrited baggage coach. It's not really the correct one, but better than nothing. Another choice could be Liliput's MaschPw4ü-37. Hope this helps a bit to light up the situation. Kind regards

Thanks Martin, there's a huge amount of useful information for me here1 Thanks again, Dave.

I reopen this thread for some new information. In the current edition of the Eisenbahnkurier there is a story about the last German POWs comming home from Russia and the story behind it. Adenauer visited Russia in 1955 and the talks nearly failed because Stalin and Adenauer could not agree in the problem of the POWs. At the end of the story in the Eisenbahnkurier there is a full list of which coaches went to Moskau: 2x BR23 (in Western Germany only of course) B4i-30 - 25 046 Ffm (probably this coach has had bellows at that time) AB4ü-28 - 11 393 Ffm MaschPw4ü-37 - 8903 Ffm (ex SalMaschPw4ü-37 105 065) MaschPw4ü-37 - 8904 Ffm (ex SalMaschPw4ü-37 105 067) WL4ü - 20 991 P DSG (ex SalL4ü-37 10 231) WL4ü - 20 992 P DSG (ex SalL4ü-37 10 232) WR4ü - 1227 P DSG (ex SalonR6ü-40 10 245) WL4ü - 20 990 P DSG (ex SalL4ü-37 10 221) Post4ü-bI/21 - 4796 BP Pw4ü-37 - 105 685 Ffm Salon4ü-30/50 - 10 390 Ffm (ex B4ü-30 HAPAG 15 026) Salon4ü-37 - 10 205 Ffm SdrPw4ü-39 - 10 293 Ffm A nice long train, which tempts to be put in to H0 scale.

Thanks Martin, this would indeed be an interesting train in model form. Also an interesting article from the sounds of things. Unfortunately, I know of no supplier of these magazines in the UK. A pity as a friend occasionally brings these back from Germany and I find it a very interesting publication. Incidentally, when Herr Adenauer's train reached the Polish - Russian border, did he change trains or was it in some way re-gauged? Kind regards, Dave.

You could try M.G. Sharp at http://www.mgsharp.com/european_books.htm. They say they have Eisenbahn Kurier magazines. Tony

Thanks Tony :D

The same article in eisenbahnkurier tells us, that the Bundesbahn sent a train with a sufficient number of 1524mm bogies to the Polish/Russian border in advance.

Chancellor's coach
Off on a tangent again - can someone advise me what type of generator(s) were fitted to Liliput's later red/beige version of WGSugh 851 no.51 80 89-90 308-5, branded for 200 km/h? I've turned up two photos, both of the corridor side but surely the "h" rather than "z" would require a generator or two? They do show that Mg brakes and Wankstuetze need to be added. A similar question arises with an Ade 200km/h WRmh 132 DB "SPEISEWAGEN". Or is the "200" a mistake by one or both model designers? Puzzled? I am, David

Chancellor's coach
Found the answer about bogie details, at least for the 200 km/h WGS 851 in the red/cream colour scheme (RAL purpurrot/elfenbein). I hope no one has been hunting through dusty heaps of old magazines meanwhile, delighted as I should be to see other evidence. There is a photograph of the compartment side of no.51 80 89-90 307-5 in the Transpress pocket book "Kleine Typenkunde deutscher Reisezugwagen", 1995 edition, p.125. The Liliput bogies are a good generic representation of the Minden-Deutz bogie and need the following additions from the spares box: Both carry an inclined shaft generator but these must be mounted on opposite sides in relation to the coupling clearance recess. Both generators then sit on the compartment side; a slot must be cut upwards in the cast-on inclined damper to clear the shaft. The best generator is by Ade but those from Lima and Heris are adequate. The Roco one is rather small in diameter. Wankstuetze (the knee-shaped sway dampers, again from any maker) are mounted in pairs on the opposite end of the bogie from the generator. The vehicles are disc braked (only from Ade or Heris spares) and have electro-magnetic rail brakes (any maker). No longer puzzled? David