3-axle convert stock.
What is the correct formation for DB close coupled 3-axle convert stock? Are they assembled in 4, 6 or 8 car rakes, what is the typical consist of the rakes? Tim

Tim, There is no rake make up other than the permanent coupling of two coaches. These were 1st/2nd and 2nd, 2nd /Baggage and 2nd, 2nd and 2nd. Combinations of these up to whatever was required(4 coaches seems to be the norm) and also with a driving trailer in push-pull trains. Funny you should ask about these, as I have just ordered 3 (Roco) rakes of two. David.

I have seen photos of 2, 4 and 6 car sets used on local runs. Two car sets were often just a pair of 2nd class coaches, sometimes taking the place of a railbus. Four coach sets had two typical configurations. These were: 2nd--1st/2nd + 2nd--2nd/Pwg or 2nd--2nd + 2nd/1st--2nd/Pwg I find the second configuration more typical of the 70's, while the first is more of a sixties or earlier thing. I think the sets were initially made up with one of the pair being a full 2nd and the other a combine, but later, in the 70's, when the coaches were used in guest worker trains the 2nd class coaches were removed from the sets for those trains and given computer numbers for international service. The remaining coaches were assembled into pairs, resuting in the pairs of 2nd/1st--2nd/Pwg. The coaches not used in the worker trains usually kept their pre-UIC numbers. The six coach trains followed the 4 coach pattern except there was one extra pair of full 2nd's added. There may have been longer trains (other than the worker specials which could reach 20 or more coaches), but I'm not familiar with any. Jurgen edit: corrected 2nd/1st--2nd/Pwg order for clarity, see post below.

Martin Silz has posted some interesting information on these converted coaches on the WorldRailFans website here: http://www.worldrailfans.info/Articles/Europe/GUmbauwagen.shtml He says the pairs were coupled in specific configurations as follows: B3yg + B3yg WC at the outside of the pairs AB3yg + AB3yg 1st class compartments in the middle of the pairs B3yg + AB3yg same as above B3yg + BD3yg baggage compartment at the outside AB3yg + BD3yg same as above This agrees with photos of these trains that I have seen. Tom

Folks, This is a typical Wupper area local train (early S bahn) of the early 1960s. This is a Wuppertal-Essen train, propelled by a class 78 4-6-4T. This train will be one of the local services running on the layout. :8) Can't wait to get the layout up and running. :( David

That's an interesting photo. Up to the 1970's I believe there were only 3 types of DB coaches with Wendezug wiring, and this shows two of them, the 3yg Umbauwagen and the Mitteleinsteigwagen. The other, of course, is the Silberling. I think there was one full baggage D3ygb-54 made with a control cab experimentally for such trains, but it was only a one-off. When the 3yg's were used in Wendezug-service, this was the typical configuration. It's too bad you don't like DCC, David; Roco has a Steuerwagen like the one in your photo with digitally controlled headlights available right now. It will work without DCC as well, you just can't shut the lights off remotely. (Yes, I know you can simply turn off the track power to do that... :P ) Jurgen

I just took another look at the photo and noticed the Mitteleinsteigwagen doesn't have a baggage section. That makes it a B4ymf-51; there were only 51 of those, and I don't think a model has been made of that type. I suppose the Roco BD4ymf-51 will be close enough. Jurgen

Hi Jurgen, I don't know whether to take a knife to the Roco BD4ym-51 and convert it, or cheat a little more and use a POST 4mf (only 3 built in 1953)which was specially built for push-pull services. David

Well, if I were to cheat, I would cheat with the Roco BD4ym-51 rather than use the Post4mf. The Post was never used in Wendezug-service, as the service they were designed for never materialized. The Post4mf's were soon converted to regular Postwagen. Jurgen

I did not know that. I think the Roco model will have to do. David

I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think the Mitteleinsteigwagen had true push-pull capability, with the engineer controlling the locomotive from the control cab directly, nor did the BR 78. I thought the engineer sitting in the control cab communicated through special signals with a specially trained fireman in the locomotive, who executed the engineer's instructions. Many of these control cabs were removed to enlarge the baggage areas when the Silberlings, with true push-pull capability, became available. Therefore, I'm not sure it's correct to talk about Wendezug wiring in the Mitteleinsteigwagen. Always willing to be educated :wink: Tom

Well, I've never heard about any inferiority in the controls of a Mitteleinsteigswagen control car. I did a quick search on the subject in DSO and the gents there are of the opinion that 3yg's, Mitteleinsteigswagen and Silberlinge were all intercompatible and could be seen mixed in trains. The Wendezugsteuerung (push-pull controls) were removed from Mitteleinsteigswagen for other reasons, most likely because the abundance of Silberlinge made them obsolete. It's true that a steam loco couldn't be truly remotely controlled by the engineer, but Silberlinge and Mitteleinsteigswagen were both used in that service and communicated with the fireman in the same way. Jurgen

Now that you ask, of course I can't find the original source of my information about the push-pull capabilities of the Mitteleinsteigwagen. I will look further. In the meantime, I did find this reference to indirect push-pull capability in DB steam locos, especially the BR 78, fitted in the 1950s, on the German Wikipedia under Wendezug. Translation due to Babel Fish with some obvious mistakes fixed by me: "In the 50's the DB converted several steam engines of the series 78 for the turning train service between Frankfurt and Wiesbaden. The Lokomotivfuehrer had directly only access to the brake. He passed the instructions on for accelerating or maintaining the speed to a particularly trained fireman, who served the automatic controller and the control (indirect push-pull)." I know you can't believe everything you read on Wikipedia, but I haven't seen any info to contradict these claims elsewhere. I'll let you know if I can find more on the Mitteleinsteigwagen. Tom

Well, I haven't been able to find my source on the information I posted about the rudimentary push-pull capability in Mitteleinsteigwagen, so I think it would be best to disregard this information until I can substantiate it. I'm beginning to think I actually saw it on German Wikipedia, but it has since been edited out, probably because the information was found to be incorrect! As they say, caveat emptor, especially when it comes to the Internet. Cheers Tom EDIT: I wonder if a moderator could move this post to Jurgen's new thread on Push-pull steering, where it belongs. Thanks!

Hi to all, Thank you very much for this informative and very interesting topic. With your permission, I'd like to publish this in Turkish in my site: I'm sure the Turkish audience will be very interested. Regards, Cem.